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Author Topic: [Pathfinder] What to do with the Alchemist  (Read 35914 times)
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kalaskaagathas
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« on: October 13, 2010, 12:07:54 AM »

I've been reading over Pathfinder's Alchemist and I'm not quite sure what to make of it.  It gets Bombs which are like a Warlock's Eldritch Blast, except they have a limited number of uses.  It gets Extracts which are kinda like spells in a bottle, but they only go up to level six and only work for the Alchemist (unless you spend a Discovery to make them work on others).  It gets Mutagens which grant some natural armor and a physical stat boost (along with a corresponding mental stat penalty), but with a fairly mediocre selection of weapons this seems wasted.  It gets various Discoveries which modify its various class features, but none seem to be stand out good (they mostly modify the Bombs which seems to be a bit sub-par).  It adds its INT mod to splash weapon damage, including splash damage, but then we run into the Rogue with flasks of Alchemist's Fire problem (that is, does a character get enough wealth that making splash weapons your primary armament can be a valid tactic?).  It also gets some bonii to alchemy and poisoning (both making difficulty and time, and application in the case of poisons), but these don't seem to deal with the fundamental issue that making all these alchemical items costs money, which may not be available depending on your campaign.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the Alchemist is a class with a lot of flavor, but doesn't seem to have the mechanical substance to back it up.  What is the Alchemist good at?  Self Buffing and Melee?  Ranged Attacking with Splash Weapons?  Crafting (or rather, Alchemy)?

Can we make an effective Alchemist, with the rules as written?

Edit: Oh, and the Alchemist is proficient with light armor, simple weapons, and gets ok skillpoints/level from an ok list.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 12:12:19 AM by kalaskaagathas » Logged

Philosophers often behave like little children who scribble some marks on a piece of paper at random and then ask the grown-up "What's that?" — It happened like this: the grown-up had drawn pictures for the child several times and said "this is a man," "this is a house," etc. And then the child makes some marks too and asks: what's this then? - Wittgenstein

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juton
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 05:50:28 AM »

The Alchemist is a Jack of all Trades who is kind of subpar at everything. He lets players have a super-science themed character as opposed to magic themed which is something. The bombs seem unimportant, they are too limited in number and effect to base a build around, I think mutagens and extracts are its strong suits.

The Alchemist's extracts are some decent spells from the Wizard's list, but he's limited to 6th level spells and his spell list is really short, but at least he can learn everything on the list. Mutagens let you replicate something like a Barbarian's Rage, and it lasts for 10s of minutes at a time, which is long enough to dungeon dive. If he got full BAB he'd be a pretty good fighter with some awesome versatility via his extracts, if he got 9th level extracts he'd be a viable caster. But we're stuck in the middle, I think the best plan would be to play an Alchemist as a character that uses his buffs to fight like a fighter class, which he can probably excel as vs playing him as a caster, where he's far too limited. The Magus and the Inquisitor class have the very same chasis, 3/4 BAB and 6th level casting, I wonder which one of these does Fighter/Mage best?
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kalaskaagathas
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 10:05:09 AM »

I agree, Bombs are too limited to build around.  But what can the Alchemist do well?  Should he focus on buffing his strength score and using poisoned weapons?  If he were to do so, would TWFing be better or two-handing a long spear?  Should he make a lot of alchemist's fire and focus on throwing splash weapons?  What would an effective, focused Alchemist build look like?
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Philosophers often behave like little children who scribble some marks on a piece of paper at random and then ask the grown-up "What's that?" — It happened like this: the grown-up had drawn pictures for the child several times and said "this is a man," "this is a house," etc. And then the child makes some marks too and asks: what's this then? - Wittgenstein

Just call me KA.

Brainstorming Thread for a Psionic Tricks Handbook (WIP!)
juton
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2010, 04:04:25 PM »

I like gishes, so if I was playing an Alchemist I'd dip a level of Fighter or maybe Ranger for martial weapon proficiency and armour proficiency. The Alchemist doesn't have ASF so sticking him in heavy armour is probably a good idea, and if you are going into melee at early levels you want something with large damage die or possibly a large threat range. You only need to have a 16 intelligence at 20th level to be able to access all your extracts that lessons MAD a bit, you're free to put your points towards strength or maybe dexterity and constitution.

Glancing over the class, his extracts only work if someone drinks them, so he can't be a good offensive caster. Even if he had the right extracts known he can't deliver them. I'm sure there's some way to make an Alchemist Archer, but it eludes me at present. Since he strength mod fluctuates getting him a compound bow is less effective, because either you're not using all it's strength modifier or take a penalty when you don't have mutagen strength, so I think something like a sling might be best.

If you wanted to go straight alchemist I'd probably start with low int, high strength and either higher dexterity for AC or higher constitution for hitpoints. I'd go human, putting the extra +2 into strength, if I get any traits I'd take heirloom weapon so that I could start with a MWK Greatsword. At first level I'd prepare truestrike and clw, at higher levels you get things like invisibility, barkskin and fly, which are all decent buffs.
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veekie
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2010, 04:27:36 PM »

Hmm, the alchemist lacks sneak attack or similar to take advantage of the touches of thrown alchemicals, plus they can get pretty heavy.
However, since the mutagen stacks with enhancement bonuses, you can use it to mix it up a bit at earlier levels, using dex to make sure bombs hit while you have them to spare and switching to meleeing later.

Note one benefit of his extracts is that they can be prepared in very little time, so get to filling that recipe book and leaving most of your slots blank. The Infusion discovery is probably a must. handing them out to the party is so useful I've no idea why they didn't give it for free off the bat. The bombs should almost never be used 'straight', they can, however, carry nifty potent debuff or battlefield control effects with the right discoveries.
Concussion bombs are decent for slowing down enemy spellcasters.
Dispelling bombs are obvious, you have as many dispels as you have bombs to throw.
Explosive bombs , setting people on fire is just entertaining. but not that useful, especially when it doesn't stack with other bomb modifying discoveries.
Fast bombs are good for delivering the debuff bombs en masse, not for damage. If you have a few feats to ramp up the throw rate, this can be nice.
Inferno bombs, if not for the damned thing dealing fire damage(maybe you can make a case to the DM for mixing them with energy type bombs to change the damage type), this can be pretty handy but the area is on the small side
Madness bombs, too little impact, you'd need to use a LOT of bombs to get enough wis damage to drop someone
Poison bomb, gold, just gold. Especially if you have Fast Bombs.
Smoke bombs, see Inferno bombs.
Stink bomb, stinking cloud is a nasty debuff to have to face

So, with bombs, you have a few that needs a direct hit:
Concussion, Dispelling and Madness, as well as the energy modifiers. Other than Dispelling, no big loss here. You aren't using your bombs for damage
Fast Bomb, Smoke Bomb with Poison, Stink and Inferno treat the actual hit as a nice secondary benefit, the main benefit is that you can deliver a large number of 10ft radius debuffs/smoke clouds early in a fight

In conclusion, you want to have a melee focus, but spend some discoveries on Fast Bomb, Dispelling Bomb and Poison/Stink/Inferno, leaving enough starting Dex to buy Rapid Shot(which, you were going to have Dex 14 anyway). If you can get hold of a Flask Thrower(it's on the PFRD as sourcing from Gnomes of Golarion(don't have it myself)), maybe you can get Speed on it to launch 3-4 bombs at once at mid levels for battlefield control. You should have enough by then to open every fight with such a salvo, switching over to 2H melee or more infusion oriented actions(which you shouldn't need to if you had the Infusion discovery and the fighters use their first round to chug buffpotions).
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-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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veekie
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2010, 04:36:23 PM »

Wait, missed something, Fast Bombs works with TWF, so if you don't mind blowing even more in the first round, open a fight with something like 5 Cloudkill bombs(or mix in whatever other bomb flavors you have). You don't need to hit, just land in the general vicinity.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
kalaskaagathas
Bi-Curious George
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Posts: 369


"Seek Perfection of Character" - Gichin Funakoshi


« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 01:22:02 AM »

Well, in that case, could Two Weapon Fighting be combined with poisons for effective melee and effective bombthrowing?
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Philosophers often behave like little children who scribble some marks on a piece of paper at random and then ask the grown-up "What's that?" — It happened like this: the grown-up had drawn pictures for the child several times and said "this is a man," "this is a house," etc. And then the child makes some marks too and asks: what's this then? - Wittgenstein

Just call me KA.

Brainstorming Thread for a Psionic Tricks Handbook (WIP!)
veekie
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 11:24:05 AM »

Well, with sticky poison alone, you can poison your weapon beforehand(you won't even need concentrate poison) and get multiple hits out of it, so, you get value for money early on.
Low BAB might get in the way of TWFing heavily though.
Logged

The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
veekie
Organ Grinder
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Posts: 9034


WARNING: Homing Miko


« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2010, 01:56:31 PM »

Ok, at levels 1-5, the alchemist can't afford to make regular use of any decent poisons yet. So you'd be using the mutagen to raise Dex and provide ranged support with your bombs while they last, their relatively low damage doesn't matter so much at this level yet. Take the Infusion discovery so you can give the BSF(or yourself) the Enlarge Person infusion and perform party healing, followed by the Smoke Bomb discovery to help break up enemy lines of sight or Stink bomb for an easy opening nauseate. Some time during this mess you pick up weapon finesse and TWF

Once you hit level 6, the sticky poison discovery, crafting your own poisons, and the ability to poison weapons as a swift action lets you give people large overdoses of knockout poisons for cheap. Dispelling bombs would be a good idea, as are Fast Bombs and Poison bombs once you meet the prereqs. Around this time, Rapid Shot would be good, as is spending any spare feats for improving the mutagen via extra discoveries.

Around 14th level, you can use the transformational infusions(along with your fighter buddy) stacking them with mutagen bonuses and hurling large opening salvos of bombs. Hmm...can you poison natural weapons...
Logged

The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
Rooster
Ring-Tailed Lemur
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2010, 04:32:13 AM »

In Races of Eberron, there is a Shaped Splash feat. If you hit, you can treat a second nearby target as a primary target as well... and you basically get Sculpt Spell for your grenades as well.
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veekie
Organ Grinder
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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 10:16:56 AM »

Any way to increase the secondary splash radius? Thats a lot more useful than primary target increase.
Logged

The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
AngellusMortus
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« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2010, 04:45:23 PM »

How about the potential Mr. Hyde aspect of the Alchemist. Mutagens can be brutal. Take a look at Feral Mutagen: 3 Natural Attacks, all Primary and therefore full BAB and full benefit from Power Attack. It being a mutagen, you also get +4 Alchemical Strength bonus, which will stack with every other STR bonus you might want to tack on. Finally, a quick glance at the 2nd Level extract "Alchemical Allocation," which lets you drink a potion then spit it back out and still get the benefits without using up the potion.

So, at level 4, you learn that extract and go buy yourself a Greater Magic Fang CL 20 potion for 3000 gold. Everyday when you wake up, you gargle that baby and spit it back out, making it an effectively infinite +5 Enhancement Bonus to Nat Attacks for 20 hours for the cost of one 2nd level extract. Right before combat, you shoot up with a Mutagen and go Feral. If you have a round of prep time, go ahead and slug an Enlarge Person extract too (not a huge deal if you don't.)

Assuming a 16 STR + 4 (Mutagen) + 2 (Enlarge) and having gargled your morning buff, you're now attacking 3 times with a d20+12 (3 BAB, 6 STR, 5 GMF, -1 Size, -1 Power Attack). These attacks are 2 claws at 1d8+13 each and one bite at 2d6+13. All of this at level 4, without reliance on anything but self buffs and a 3000g magical item. This becomes *slightly* less astounding at higher levels, since the extra attacks become less amazing, but the fact that the buffs from Mutagen keep getting higher combined with a full BAB class that also adds extra damage like Master Chymist makes it far from useless. Oh, and don't forget the swift action poisoning of your claws at level 6.

Melee Alchemists can be nasty.
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veekie
Organ Grinder
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WARNING: Homing Miko


« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2010, 07:41:35 AM »

That is some nasty mouthwash.
Logged

The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
Senevri
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2010, 09:30:44 AM »

Alchemist has been a lot of fun in our PF game, and is in fact a decent item crafter. The ability to provide the party with daily darkvision /true strike/invisibility potions has been quite valuable.

Definitely not a front-line combatant ( although, see master chymist ), more of a arcane trouble solver, and party supporter. The bombs are just a way for the Alchemist to participate in combat, really.

( this pathfinder game has totally blown my mind, though. We have about 1 fight every three sessions. Big Grin )
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veekie
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2010, 12:38:07 PM »

Not using the mutagens much?
Logged

The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
Senevri
Donkey Kong
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Posts: 708



WWW
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2010, 07:34:08 AM »

Gnome. Usually using the mutagen, if just for the increased defense.
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someweirdguy
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2010, 03:05:16 PM »

Finally, a quick glance at the 2nd Level extract "Alchemical Allocation," which lets you drink a potion then spit it back out and still get the benefits without using up the potion.

So, at level 4, you learn that extract and go buy yourself a Greater Magic Fang CL 20 potion for 3000 gold. Everyday when you wake up, you gargle that baby and spit it back out, making it an effectively infinite +5 Enhancement Bonus to Nat Attacks for 20 hours for the cost of one 2nd level extract.

Just a note, the Pathfinder version of GMF only gives the full bonus to one natural weapon per use. You can give all natural weapons a +1 with it for one use. Still useful to use Alchemical Allocation, but it takes more than one extract slot to get all three attacks buffed.
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veekie
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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2010, 03:24:18 PM »

Hmm, what other potions are good for this trick though?
Logged

The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
kadeity
Ring-Tailed Lemur
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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2010, 08:37:28 PM »

My alchemist is a splash weapon master. I get enough gold to manage to stay stocked on them so its a worthwhile tactic for me.

halflings get +1 on attacks with thrown weapons, and get a dex bonus, so i chose that for a race.
Shaped Splash is a racial feat for halflings from races of eberron which lets you, if you hit with a splash weapon, make a second attack against someone adjacent to the first, and if you hit with that also, they both take the primary target damage. Additionally you can exclude targets from your splash area.
splash weapon mastery from adventurers armory gives you one extra splash square,far shot with splash weapons, and lets you adjust your hit square by one when you miss.
Throw Anything alchemist gets this for free, and his INT modifier to damage done by splash weapons, which is why i chose this tactic.
Grenadier from the 3.5 players handbook 2 gives you a +1 to attack and damage with splash weapons, and specifically mentions that this +1 includes its splash damage.

The phb2 feat mad alchemist was good in 3.5, just because you could ruin spellcasting with thunderstones, but with the mechanic being dependent on concentration, i dont know how well it would convert to pathfinder.

Master Thrower PrC can make every thrown weapon attack becomes a Trip attack, along with some other goodies.

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Glutton
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2010, 03:26:21 AM »

http://pathfinder.ogrehut.com/2010/07/alchemist-build-guide/

is a good starting point
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